平衡桿

gwagwa

QUOTE (lchgti @ Jan 1 2006, 09:38 AM)

小暴龍將平衡桿拿掉!可飛ㄇ? 誰有試過,操控性如何?

如果覺得醜 將平衡桿減短 加上小重垂 還是可以飛的好吧

chinlin

QUOTE (gwagwa @ Jan 13 2006, 04:56 PM)

QUOTE (lchgti @ Jan 1 2006, 09:38 AM) 小暴龍將平衡桿拿掉!可飛ㄇ? 誰有試過,操控性如何? 如果覺得醜 將平衡桿減短 加上小重垂 還是可以飛的好吧

如果你是說 平衡桿+重垂....那會死的更慘...cccc

阿昆

應該是說"旋翼旋轉慣性",大多RC直升機都需要有平衡桿,因為RC直升機旋翼重量其實來說算太輕,在旋轉狀態下,慣性力量根本沒那麼大,十字盤在改變方向時,RC直升機的慣性太小,沒多大力量可以改變方向,所以要增加平衡桿,來達到飛行時的犀利,當然要配合旋翼頭的設計大多都是貝爾跟希拉混著使用越是設計給3C的機子,旋翼頭結構最少,越是強調3D機子,旋翼頭結構都稍微比較複雜ㄧ點,來達到飛行,RC要拿掉平衡桿的話,最適合的結構應該屬於貝爾結構,貝爾旋翼頭結構最少,所以剛性也好,陀螺效應下 ,貝爾較容易回到中力點,但飛行起來會很鈍,RC方面要改成無平衡桿的話,就屬貝爾結構最好!!
貝爾其實就是結構很少,沒有像希拉結構有剪臂,就很單純拉PITCH,十字盤控制方向而已..!!
貝爾設計這大多數運輸跟民用直升機最常看見,在設計真實機,大多設計師的走向是省錢.維修簡易..貝爾結構少,所以剛性也比較好,也相對維修很簡易,不會太複雜!!
希拉結構比較最常運用在靈活性的直升機上,例如:戰鬥直升機..
RC是介於兩者之間,因為RC是人在外控制,所以感受不到直升機輕微的晃動程度,所以就需要ㄧ半貝爾結構來輔助穩定性..!!
還是打打中文好..英文看好累..!!

lchgti

貝爾式看似簡單,但主翼軸頭結構是否會比較複雜一點?

阿昆

並不太會..!!還跟RC長的還滿類似的!!!因為要維修簡易..!!不會考量太複雜設計!!

chinlin

QUOTE (阿昆 @ Jan 13 2006, 09:35 PM)

應該是說"旋翼旋轉慣性",大多RC直升機都需要有平衡桿,因為RC直升機旋翼重量其實來說算太輕,在旋轉狀態下,慣性力量根本沒那麼大,十字盤在改變方向時,RC直升機的慣性太小,沒多大力量可以改變方向,所以要增加平衡桿,來達到飛行時的犀利,當然要配合旋翼頭的設計大多都是貝爾跟希拉混著使用越是設計給3C的機子,旋翼頭結構最少,越是強調3D機子,旋翼頭結構都稍微比較複雜ㄧ點,來達到飛行,RC要拿掉平衡桿的話,最適合的結構應該屬於貝爾結構,貝爾旋翼頭結構最少,所以剛性也好,陀螺效應下 ,貝爾較容易回到中力點,但飛行起來會很鈍,RC方面要改成無平衡桿的話,就屬貝爾結構最好!! 貝爾其實就是結構很少,沒有像希拉結構有剪臂,就很單純拉PITCH,十字盤控制方向而已..!! 貝爾設計這大多數運輸跟民用直升機最常看見,在設計真實機,大多設計師的走向是省錢.維修簡易..貝爾結構少,所以剛性也比較好,也相對維修很簡易,不會太複雜!! 希拉結構比較最常運用在靈活性的直升機上,例如:戰鬥直升機.. RC是介於兩者之間,因為RC是人在外控制,所以感受不到直升機輕微的晃動程度,所以就需要ㄧ半貝爾結構來輔助穩定性..!! 還是打打中文好..英文看好累..!!

>>>RC要拿掉平衡桿的話,最適合的結構應該屬於貝爾結構,貝爾結構最少,所以剛性也好,陀螺效應下 ,貝爾較容易回到中力點

若是上面的說法, 這樣flybar還是存在的! 使用了貝爾方式(但非只是採用貝耳的混控臂),也就是說使用了flybar+重垂 產生巨大離心力來牽制pitch link的活動,使它更穩定.操控性也比較差.　若要拿掉flybar, 就得留意blade grip的方向性(delta 3 angle), 十字盤與pitch link之間的傳動設計, 由於rc比例小, 又是第三人稱去控制, 通長需將微小的變化(但反應確很大的動作)交給gyro去處理, 所以之前的討論使用了gyro來兜出一台flybarless的RC直升機.

tudole

QUOTE (阿昆 @ Jan 13 2006, 05:35 AM)

應該是說"旋翼旋轉慣性",大多RC直升機都需要有平衡桿,因為RC直升機旋翼重量其實來說算太輕,在旋轉狀態下,慣性力量根本沒那麼大,十字盤在改變方向時,RC直升機的慣性太小,沒多大力量可以改變方向,所以要增加平衡桿,來達到飛行時的犀利,當然要配合旋翼頭的設計大多都是貝爾跟希拉混著使用越是設計給3C的機子,旋翼頭結構最少,越是強調3D機子,旋翼頭結構都稍微比較複雜ㄧ點,來達到飛行,RC要拿掉平衡桿的話,最適合的結構應該屬於貝爾結構,貝爾旋翼頭結構最少,所以剛性也好,陀螺效應下 ,貝爾較容易回到中力點,但飛行起來會很鈍,RC方面要改成無平衡桿的話,就屬貝爾結構最好!! 貝爾其實就是結構很少,沒有像希拉結構有剪臂,就很單純拉PITCH,十字盤控制方向而已..!! 貝爾設計這大多數運輸跟民用直升機最常看見,在設計真實機,大多設計師的走向是省錢.維修簡易..貝爾結構少,所以剛性也比較好,也相對維修很簡易,不會太複雜!! 希拉結構比較最常運用在靈活性的直升機上,例如:戰鬥直升機.. RC是介於兩者之間,因為RC是人在外控制,所以感受不到直升機輕微的晃動程度,所以就需要ㄧ半貝爾結構來輔助穩定性..!! 還是打打中文好..英文看好累..!!

not quite true.....

When we are talking about bell/hiller system, that namely refer to how the cyclic control to the rotor blade is done. A rotor design has more mechanism than that... like Chinlin points out the delta3 angle... the most important factor is the type of rotor. The rotor of RC helicopter is close to a "semi-rigid rotor". This kind of rotor provides instant response, trmemdous of control moments for 3D flights. The O-rings in the hub serve as the purpose of "hub springs/damper" and provide lead/lag and flapping degree of freedom. This is the most simple and efficient mechanism I can think of for a RC helicopter. however, the down side of this design is it's inherent instability, especially the RC helicopter has very small mass/inertia to damp out the rotor instability. So here comes in is the hiller/bell mixing cyclic pitch control, utlizing a set of paddles (or stablizer tabs). Hiller system will mix the flapping motion of the stablizer bar into cyclic control from the swatch plate(the bell system). Some models has more than one holes in the see-saw to adjust the mechanical ratio. More of the bell input tends to better response and less stability. The rotor is such a complex machine. The dynamic is the sum of many mechanisms and aerodynamic surfaces; most of them are coupled together. If you removed one of them, the system may not be working at all.

Hope this information will help. I appreciate any correction or comments.

hornet

Hi all

Here is the video of Elevated Tail with Flybarless with SCAS TRex in normal flying around.

http://www.daddyhobby.com/gallery/showphot...t=500&ppuser=61

OR To download it:

http://www.daddyhobby.com/gallery/data/500...tdoorFlight.avi

BTW, Sorry for poor picture quality and boring video. This is the first video I even made and post. Would like to thank "Adrianli" for taking this video. "Koon" TRex also appear in the video (somewhere near the end of the video)

It is encoded in XviD. If you can't play it, u need to install XviD decoder. Either Koepi or FFDShow decoder should be ok.

Hornet

pico

QUOTE (hornet @ Jan 19 2006, 12:19 AM)

Hi all Here is the video of Elevated Tail with Flybarless with SCAS TRex in normal flying around. http://www.daddyhobby.com/gallery/showphot...t=500&ppuser=61 OR To download it: http://www.daddyhobby.com/gallery/data/500...tdoorFlight.avi BTW, Sorry for poor picture quality and boring video. This is the first video I even made and post. Would like to thank "Adrianli" for taking this video. "Koon" TRex also appear in the video (somewhere near the end of the video) It is encoded in XviD. If you can't play it, u need to install XviD decoder. Either Koepi or FFDShow decoder should be ok. Hornet

這是DIY的 還是有廠家在做這個套件
是為了要裝相真機殼嗎

以前我一直以為停懸 會側傾一邊 是因為 反作用力　跟 反反作用力 的施力點不同平面造成

如果這樣改翹尾 停懸還會側傾嗎

改這個 是為了像真殼安裝 還是只是要這樣玩呢
以前國內有改過從底下裝尾管的嘗試
效果也不錯

您的這個改裝看起來還不錯 先前有看過相片
VERY GOOD JOB!

tudole

QUOTE (hornet @ Jan 18 2006, 08:19 AM)

Hi all Here is the video of Elevated Tail with Flybarless with SCAS TRex in normal flying around. http://www.daddyhobby.com/gallery/showphot...t=500&ppuser=61 OR To download it: http://www.daddyhobby.com/gallery/data/500...tdoorFlight.avi BTW, Sorry for poor picture quality and boring video. This is the first video I even made and post. Would like to thank "Adrianli" for taking this video. "Koon" TRex also appear in the video (somewhere near the end of the video) It is encoded in XviD. If you can't play it, u need to install XviD decoder. Either Koepi or FFDShow decoder should be ok. Hornet

Interesting experiment!　　I wish I could try it out myself...

I can't playback the video cause I don't have the codec... 　I assume you use 2 rate gryos for pitch and roll channel. How much gain do you use to keep it stabalized? How does the control response improved comparing to the flybar config?

hornet

Hi pico.... Thanks for your comment. I don't know how to read traditional chinese. I use Babel converter to convert to english and most of the time it doesn't convert well. So, your comment I can't really understand. Sorry.

Hi tudole.. yes I use rate gyro. One for Aileron and one for Elevator. Both are GWS PG-03. It is better to use good gyro like GY240 or higher instead but due to budget reason, I use GWS PG-03.

I never try with Heading Hold Gyro but by understanding how it work, I suspect you cannot use it. If u use HH, it will LOCK to the position. That may cause undesirable consequences. Therefore, to use HH gyro like GY240 , u have to turn off the AVCS or heading hold. With HH turn off, GY240 will perform like rate gyro and it perform better than GWS PG-03.

As for the gain wise, If adjust too much, it will go to oscillating state. Too little, the damping effect is very low. So, I just adjust till it is just nice.

If you want faster cyclic response to flybar, u reduce the gain but it affect the damping effect (thus stability). So, as overall, it can't fight with Flybar-Paddles configuration but good thing is that it looks more like real heli.

BTW, as for the XviD Codec, here is the link:
FFDShow:
http://www.free-codecs.com/download/FFDShow.htm
Koepi:
http://www.koepi.org/xvid.shtml

Take the FFShow will do.

Hornet
(Also known as Super-Hornet or Super_Hornet)

tudole

Breifly translate Mr. Pico's comment:

這是DIY的 還是有廠家在做這個套件
是為了要裝相真機殼嗎

Is this your DIY project or a kit supplied by some manufacturer? Is this an application for scale models?

以前我一直以為停懸 會側傾一邊 是因為 反作用力　跟 反反作用力 的施力點不同平面造成

I thought helicopter hovers with slight roll attitude is caused by the moment created by force and reaction force applied in different planes.

如果這樣改翹尾 停懸還會側傾嗎

Will the tilted tail improve the helicopter roll attitude in hovering?

改這個 是為了像真殼安裝 還是只是要這樣玩呢
以前國內有改過從底下裝尾管的嘗試
效果也不錯

Are you doing this modifacation for scale project or just for experiment?
Someone in Taiwan had the similair approach, it seems to have a good effect.

您的這個改裝看起來還不錯 先前有看過相片
VERY GOOD JOB!　

It's a cool modification, I saw this mod in pic before...
補圖 BY PICO

pico

哈哈 不好意思 還勞駕前輩翻譯
正苦思要怎麼翻這些說
感謝啦

pico

剛好這裡專家很多
就這樣問吧 不好意思 借這個主題問一下

以前我一直以為停懸 會側傾一邊 是因為 反作用力　跟 反反作用力 的施力點不同平面造成

I thought helicopter hovers with slight roll attitude is caused by the moment created by force and reaction force applied in different planes.

如果這樣改翹尾 停懸還會側傾嗎

Will the tilted tail improve the helicopter roll attitude in hovering?

機機側傾 跟這個有關係嗎???
感謝

hornet

Q: Is this your DIY project or a kit supplied by some manufacturer? Is this an application for scale models?
A: This is a DIY project. I surely would like to go scale. I think for our TRex, we need 1:18 size body for the scale... The problem is that I can't find those scale (Good military helicopter) in Singapore (Yes, I'm from Singapore). If online order, I think the transportation fee is more than the scale itself.

Q: I thought helicopter hovers with slight roll attitude is caused by the moment created by force and reaction force applied in different planes.
A: I not sure what u mean by this... I guess u refering to the heli is tilted to one side when in hover. If yes, then here is the situation:
Our TRex spin in Clockwise rotation. With that, I think it is normal to have heli tilted to a side (right in this case) but how much it tilted will depend on the heli itself. My TRex with normal or elevated tail do not tilted to the right (or maybe not obvious), BUT when i set my rotor to spin Counterclockwise (CCW) like in U.S. made heli, it tilted to the left alot.
Unless it is my imagination, I do feel that the elevated tail do not drift to the left that much as compare to standard tail boom configuration (In Line Tail Rotor).

Q: Will the tilted tail improve the helicopter roll attitude in hovering?
A: See/Read above.

Q: Are you doing this modifacation for scale project or just for experiment?
Someone in Taiwan had the similair approach, it seems to have a good effect.
A: I have flybarless TRex for quite some time...since mid 2005. If you remember that Chinlin and Steph280 posted here before from RCGroups. I actually like to see heli WITHOUT flybar+paddles configuration instead. It looks more like real heli instead.

Hornet